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- Design for Owners: Red Dog
| Welcome to Pro Sim Union, the only resource forum on the web dedicated to sim games! PSU is a new forum and working hard to build a strong, friendly community. We enforce high standards of mutual respect at all times on our forums, and we welcome owners, future owners, players, and anyone else interested in the sim game genre! Right now you're viewing our forum as a guest, which means your use of features is limited and you are unable to respond to topics. By joining our community you'll be able to get involved in discussions, post your own questions, and contribute to our game listing (all without any ads!). Best of all, you'll get to know some of your fellow sim gamers and hopefully have a fun and informative experience here on PSU! Ready to join in? Join our community! |
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| Design for Owners: Red Dog; my presentation document and bibliography. | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 16 2011, 11:11 AM (637 Views) | |
| reddogdied | Jul 16 2011, 11:11 AM Post #1 |
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My Audio Recording OUTLINE Introduction: - Start up businesses are at their lowest say analysts (the future needs innovators and independent entrepreneurs) -Brief explanation of who I am and what I am presenting. What is Communication Design? -Who is in it? (descriptions) -Why they are important -Sim game realities -Sims are an industry and the gaming industry even Design Thinking Strategies -Design Thinking is a way of life -Design thinking is key (saj-nicole article) -Basic process -why it will benefit making a good team and a good business Team Creation -Have an art director and a producer full time -Where to hire these people??? -Bare bones team – Young multi-taskers -Pay them so they can pay you and I don't mean site credits Closing What do we want to grow, and are we taking the best path there? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WEBSITES TO LOOK FOR ARTISTS/DESIGNERS/ETC freelance.com conceptart.org linkedin.com cgsociety.com (for gaming industry standards and understanding of where you could go) graphicartistsguild.org (they have resources for hiring) ARTICLES http://www.mcdonough.com/writings/address_woods.htm (Address to Wood's Hole) http://m.xconomy.com/3376/show/2250dc6ae83a6c991dedb2aca2969594/ (Small article about job creation) http://www.kauffman.org/uploadedFiles/job_leaks_starting_smaller_study.pdf (Kauffman Study on job creation) http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/14/tim-brown-ideo-leadership-managing-design.html (Why we need more design thinking) http://www.forbes.com/2006/03/16/pwc-bt-reuters-cx_sj_0316thirdopinion.html (More thoughts from Saj-Nicole Joni) http://www.forbes.com/2008/03/31/free-video-games-tech-personal-cx_mji_0331free.html (How free games make money) http://venturebeat.com/2010/02/05/kongregate-shares-a-case-study-on-monetizing-browser-based-online-games/ (more money for online games information) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_management (Good starting point for design management) http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/tim_brown_urges_designers_to_think_big.html (Tim Brown on Thinking Big) http://www.buzzingup.com/2010/12/online-gaming-industry-statistics-infographic/ (Gaming Statistics) http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2010/02/how-social-games-make-money-lessons-from-farmville.html (Lessons from Farmville) http://designthinking.ideo.com/ (Tim Brown's Blog)
Edited by reddogdied, Aug 4 2011, 11:09 AM.
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| Frivi | Jul 16 2011, 09:02 PM Post #2 |
 
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I think of all the presentations today yours definitely sparked the most questions from me xD I'm going to try to summarize my concerns -- I'm legitimately interested in "your side" of the discussion (not that we are on opposing sides lol). I feel like I am missing something! xD So you have the basic outline of a "bare bones" design staff, at Art Director, Illustrator, Graphic Designer, Information Architect, Writer, Producer, Market Researcher, Advertising Head, Book Keeper/payroll (what payroll? xD), and Investors. So my immediate reaction, which you already guessed in your presentation, was that that is 9 people I have to pay at "industry standards" in order to START my game. I'm just going to be very straightforward in saying that if I had followed that method, AL would not exist today and probably would never exist, and I imagine that's the case with the majority of games in existence right now. My situation may be a little bit unique because I do not do the programming or the artwork for my site. For me then, this 'bare bones" staff eliminates most of my current jobs -- art director, writer, market researcher and advertising head. Perhaps when the site is larger, I will need people to help with these aspects, but it does not make sense to me to hire people to do things that I can do myself. Sure I could find people that have professional training in these jobs, but if I've worked with plenty of people without professional training who are fantastic, so I don't put a lot of stock into that, to be honest. I mean I am a Family Studies and Human Development major, and there are no browser-based game development majors anywhere near me that I know of, so unless I wanted to go to a private school out of state I'd be well out of luck there. I could major in business I suppose, but as someone attending a university containing a very well-to-do business school, the classes don't sound much like what I need to know to run a game in this industry. This is the first part I am confused about -- why hire "professional" people who want to be paid "industry standards" for a game with such a small population that I can do it myself? The second thing I'm just lost on is your statements about sim games not progressing or remaining "amateur" without these types of staff on board (and I was also running the event during this, so I apologize if I misheard you). To me, if everyone waited until they had the funds to build this kind of team, we wouldn't have even close to the amount of growth we have right now. Maybe we'd have games that gained notoriety outside of the browser based game niche, but I don't know that that's necessarily a good thing given what you are giving up in return. To me I would rather see a wider variety of more unique games growing at a slower rate than see those few games that manage to find the startup funds grow larger, faster. If I have to be an "amateur" for a few years to do that, that's what I personally would rather do -- in fact to me part of the charm of sim games is that they ARE run by "amateurs", because you end up with such down-to-earth, community-minded people and unique concepts that I'm not sure would be quite the same if only professionally trained people were starting up games. I thought I also heard you say that you're not going to get investors unless you have this staff...which, again, seems highly unlikely from an owner's perspective xD I suppose I could take out a loan to hire the staff to design the game that doesn't exist yet and pay them regularly throughout the year+ of development in order to convince someone to invest in my game AND hope that they don't want control over how I run it or too large a percentage of my future profits so that I can pay off my loan and still keep making money for my site AND the 9 person design team I now have, and hope to have a little for myself afterward. But that just doesn't seem like a very good option given all of the ways you could do it instead lol. I'm not trying to be snarky at all (really) xD I'm just highly confused. It's easy (not pointing at you, just in general) to say, "Yeah, you should have this professional team to run your site so that's it's a real live business and everything is organized correctly.", and I'm sure that having a full design staff would be incredibly helpful, but it's a very different perspective when you are the one paying the bills. ANYWAY xD Thank you for sparking the discussion, I look forward to hearing your thoughts ^^ |
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| Lint | Jul 17 2011, 04:33 AM Post #3 |
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You mentioned in your presentation that you considered yourself a self-trained illustrator. I was wonder at what point, did you reach that consideration? I've always felt that it was sort of like when you turn 21 and legally you are an adult, but really you don't feel any different then at 20 (or at least that was me), or was it something more along the lines of an event that shaped your career? (i.e. first paying job, etc) Do you have have any suggestions for those entering or considering to enter into an artistic field, especially those who are considering self training? Being self taught, are there any areas of study you place more emphasis on because of your work with sims? Do you utilize any tools or methods for refining your self study? (i.e. goal setting) I think most artists will agree that the learning never stops, and as such, how do you maintain focus when there is always so many varied areas to improve upon? Lastly (I swear Xd) do you have any suggestions for those who start out making tag images for sims into growing that artistic journey into something more career based? I know I strayed from the topic of your presentation and more into your personal journey, just looking for a brain to pick as I am quite on the fence about my own struggle forward, and hopefully I'm not stealing too much of your time. Thanks, xd Edited by Lint, Jul 17 2011, 04:34 AM.
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| reddogdied | Jul 17 2011, 07:40 AM Post #4 |
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Whew! Well, to be honest frivi, I don't have answers, but I am taking what I know about the gaming industry (from reading and from two illustrators I know in harmonix and another studio in boston) and from being involved in keeping books in two private start up businesses - one in retail, one in construction. I'm going to make a few blanket statements first and try to answer your questions, but this is under the impression you guys may wish to increase populations and revenues. If that isn't what you want then perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree! - I have nothing wrong with hobbies, and I have nothing wrong with the amateur learning a playing field. Both these things are great! I mean it! But my presentation is from the perspective of you guys going further than you are and while I know you may like your staff or feel satisfied, it in no way meets the gaming industry or close, really, in which because it is commercial, popular, and innovative. Therefore they are probably doing something right. - A while ago we were talking about psu discussion and I somehow missed/neglected your post to me for months? haha. Well, anyway, you commented that ps3's and consoles have much more security when people purchase them and therefore it is harder to get someone to pay for a sim game. I may be harder, but, to what pains to make this seems safe and simply decide in mindset that you'll make this accessible to those people? Or determine to make it free and live off of investors? You have to get revenue somewhere. I think that the internet is where quite a lot of transactions are being made and for video games (steam) when it is on a safe looking place for it. I think that sense of establishment could very easily be made for parents on sim games. I am not saying it is easy and without failure, I am simply saying that it could happen. Times are a'changing and my 10 year old nephew has a cell phone.  My niece had a smart phone before me and was buying webkins online before I ever bought art online, yikes.- I am going to say then that if this was any other business, you may not have succeeded. I mean this not as an insult or some sort of challenge, but that businesses generally require loans or quite a bit of start up money and if they get great employees and they can create/harness the demand, they have it. I'll refer to one businesses: Beacon Hill Chocolates: Owned by Paula Barth, a wonderful woman. She hailed from the bronx and poverty and educated herself in sales and business management. After being fairly successful with this she saved money, educated herself about chocolate first by hobby then for retail knowledge, got a loan and bought property on the hill. For 5 years we have moved up to a bigger location and have done some quite fascinating services for customers (wedding in kuwait, wedding for the nephew of bush senior). I have been involved with ordering supplies, customer assistance, shipping things (and couriering) as well as basic selling in store.. all the while being paid a bit more than other retail stores do. Her motto is I won't work unless she pays me and treats me right. I've been working since 08 and normally I wouldn't care about chocolate. I'd go on about Bolalek Construction but it's basically a polish family running away from communism, the father happens to just be a house whisperer and knows hardwork and great craft.
In the real world people wait to get loans or whatnot to hire and get a good first staff initially. In the real world other than these games, which do not give real incomes or whatnot as they are truly just a hobby (and one that I have participated in and enjoy, I feel like I need to stress that), the gaming industry survives entirely on investors. - One local studio in boston that had a fairly good staff had a lot of poor communication. Even if they had money, they sort of mucked around with a lot. They lost a possible full length animated movie supported by capcom from poor management. My friend left after the deal bust and realized there were better studios. A lot of students from massart had ended up over there for animation, illustration, or event planning and I heard the same story a few times. If they couldn't please the investors by having things on time and organized and with a solid concept, the dream couldn't come to life. The studio itself produced smaller things but nothing of that level. Basically without a starting concept that is polished and presentable and that you have provided a means for completing it fully, you won't get investors. - Just another example of poor business practice. I watched a pizza place go up and fail in the course of 5-7 years near my home town. It is easy to think you are raking in money in real life because it is just pizza and a relatively simple thing to deliver to clients, but, they also had next to no management and last I heard from so much stealing from the register and such the owner nearly declared the place bankrupt. It was a shame as it actually was good pizza for a while. ---------------------------------------- I don't believe any of what I presented to be easy, it hasn't been easy for anyone that I know. I do know that Beacon Hill Chocolates is doing great and growing, and Bolalek Construction has been getting high end clients for 30 years. They all pay their bills and have been paying mine, so, I am trying to learn from them. Of course you all understand that everything I have said has been knowing I never personally have run a business, I have just been involved with them. I guess my question for you is what the overall goal of AL is, how successful you want it to be, and what your business plan is? Maybe I misunderstood when I started out that you guys do not want to ever go beyond essentially volunteering and such. |
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| reddogdied | Jul 17 2011, 07:45 AM Post #5 |
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Hi Lint  My journey is just beginning, myself, but you should know that when I say 'self-trained' I mean that I have not sought out illustration classes. However, I have lots of friends in the field who I would say are also illustrators because they are paying bills. That's the bottom line, to me, is the simple act of making money. Illustration is a word that is dependent on clients and commercial design, and shouldn't be confused with just drawing/painting/fine arts. Were it not for some recent medical things I would be more active as an illustrator than I am at the moment :/ My suggestion is what I give to everyone, which someone gave to me: throw away the idea that you are not good enough or not 'there yet', and go muck with the types of illustrator you want to be. Watch them draw, learn from them, and figure out what kind of work you want to do. While you do that, draw your fingers off. It is hard to get things done when you don't know where you are going Definitely set goals. Just remember to start small with expectations of yourself and start big with hanging around talented folk.
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| Frivi | Jul 17 2011, 09:08 AM Post #6 |
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Red, thanks for the extended response! ^^ I guess my issues lies with your premise, to be honest lol. I understand perfectly well that many businesses take exactly the route that you have described, but I don't buy into the idea that that is the only professional or correct way to start a business that will succeed. I don't buy into the "in the real world", because unless I'm dreaming at the moment, this IS the real world, so very obviously it IS possible that I have succeeded to some degree without the steps you've outlined, and this is true for many other games.
I'll counter your business examples with one of my own (though I know this is not exactly a business). In my offline activities I am a part of a very large leadership program at my university. It's run by only 3 professional staff, 2 grad students, and 1 student worker. The other 100+ "staff" are volunteer students from within the program. This leadership program is recognized nationally as a standard for what a collegiate leadership program should be. Using my Googling skills, "innovative:1. Featuring new methods; advanced and original." So how the sim game industry is not innovative I am lost on a bit xD There's nothing "innovative" about following the same business staffing and startup model that has been used for years, and I think that in many ways it's selling our day and age a bit short to believe that it's NOT possible to do what we're doing. So essentially I'm just seeing two conflicting ideas in what you're saying -- you want so badly for us to be innovative, but you also want us to measure ourselves against an already existing "standard practice". Do I want to get to a point where I can hire the team you've outlined (mostly, I'm still a little fuzzy on why I would pay someone to make sure the artwork all matches...I think I can work that out for myself xD)? Of course I do! Absolutely I do, but I don't think there's anything wrong (other than being textbook or "industry standard" wrong, which I'm not very fussed about being right in) with doing it a bit "backwards" xD There are plenty of programs and businesses that run off of volunteers, and they are doing just fine for themselves. I don't feel any less worthy or likely to be successful because I haven't gone and done all of the proper industry steps to get there. Now I feel challenged to succeed regardless lol xD Edit: In other words I feel like this is one of those agree to disagree subjects heh. Edited by Frivi, Jul 17 2011, 09:21 AM.
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| reddogdied | Jul 17 2011, 09:51 AM Post #7 |
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Oh, but to agree to disagree so early would be no fun! I only wanted to encourage some more debate and to throw my cents in. Maybe it will help if I tell you some more of my personal biases and try to clarify again? I'm not sure, either way I hope you know that I am not trying in any way to rile you up and cause trouble. Consider it me trying to help and come up with ideas from my position as an illustrator: I go to art school. I have a varied interest in certain commercial areas but ever since I was a kid I wanted to work in games. As I got older, I realized I didn't care to work for video games because my primary experiences were online. About two years ago I set out to become some sort of gaming illustrator and would do what it takes to try to meet standards but also work for some smaller companies to gain experience. I suppose I started to learn the hard way that this particular industry isn't actually much of a commercial one, it is a hobby/volunteer group. This is fine, but, I can't compare it to the gaming industry or other online games which could pay me. The issue with being paid, is, unfortunately I have more pressing financial concerns than I care to give my time up so freely for right now (other than doing some more established volunteering for stuff at school or with co-ops). I started to wonder what exactly was the goal of the pro sim union and if you guys are attempting to compete with other games. My premise was if you were, you need to change your business model to something that has more talented workers in it so that you can actually get more revenues into games and it may allow for a lot more technical and creative innovation. By innovation I specifically meant in technology and visual areas, not business. I do think design thinking is one of the more 'innovative' business models for someone to follow, but, it is tried in true in design for solving complex problems. So in the end I have put a bit of my personal bias in to say what I thought was going on and any owners wished to change that, I at least am on board and rather itching for a chance to do this. I cannot (even though I want to) volunteer more than my words in sim games for now, or for a while, because I have to move on. I am worried that other very talented artists and people within games will have to as well because they simply cannot commit the time without more comparative compensation. It is not to say that I do not care for sim games, it is not to say that I don't think they are wonderful (they are, or, why else would I care at all?), but I do feel as though I have to bring up the subject more if only to at least spark conversation. I have spoken with a number of artists who have come in and out of the sim game world because they could not financially stay. I also fully understand that selling something with the best presentation and best organization it can possibly muster is the best foot forward. I am in no way questioning your leadership skills - you clearly have them. I couldn't imagine what kind of experience you have in that area as I have only been involved with our student government for a little while at best. I also think you manage the workers and peers you have around you well - you've been able to go this far with the siminar, and I am very happy to be part of it. I guess from a revenue perspective the only thing I am questioning is how you guys get your money and who you hire. It is clear to me that a lot of games online find backing for money from investors, I can't see why great presentations from the sim world couldn't compete. You all are incredibly tenacious and the legal issues involved are researchable - at least there are a lot of independent games (that are free!) out there to learn from. Isn't this what this seminar is all about? On my own end I've been doing a lot of research to figure out how more of these companies find investors and I find it to be rewarding. Perhaps for myself it is something I need to look up and learn and share. I was worried that my presentation would set off more of a negative tone than I wished, but I suppose sometimes you don't know how to say something until you do it and either succeed or fail. It is not that I think any of you are backwards, as you said, but rather I think it has taken a lot of learning and failing and coming together to figure out where you are and how you got there. I only intended this to be food for thought and maybe helpful suggestions, not hurtful ones. I will continue to try to make myself clear should you wish to keep questioning me, I am at least having fun! edit: I also want to add that I don't believe this solution to be the ONLY solution, and the only REAL world way to do it. However, other industries follow these practices and are successful, thus I used them for information and as my model. Edited by reddogdied, Jul 17 2011, 10:14 AM.
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| Ekko | Jul 17 2011, 11:01 AM Post #8 |
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I loved reading through all of those articles, Red. I've seen that Ted before, I want to pick through Tim Browns brain hah. I'm planning on reading through his blog. and how did I not know about freelance.org? :/ I think both of you have very valid points. I just want to say that maybe to get a site on it's feet, you don't need the bare bones team Red is talking about, to start out with. Once it's up and running, to make it even more efficient & successful you could hire out a team to get on the job. I have no experience with running a business, by any means, but I feel like if you start small, there's only room for improvement and growth even if it is farther down the line. On the other hand, you could have greater success with hiring a team right off the bat, even if you have to wait for funds, making it professional & functional from the start. Still kind of on the line with this one, I really don't know where I fall haha. Red, do you have any suggestions for illustrators who have only been self taught? No official training? How can we come across as professional to not only sims, but other businesses as well? Do you think self taught illustrators can be as successful as trained artists? You answered a question in siminar about illustrators & designers knowing their rights. I've read through the Graphic Artists guild, hav eyou come across any other links or articles that might be helpful? |
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| reddogdied | Jul 17 2011, 11:11 AM Post #9 |
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I suggest going through artist forums such as conceptart and cgsociety and try to find professional threads about being hired by companies and such. Lately I've been focusing on metal smithing but there are always great discussions going on in those locations. You can see what is up and coming and what people are doing. The only reason I don't study illustration at school is because I ultimately do not wish to make illustration my bread winning skill, honestly. I really like being picky and choosy about projects and I like to learn on my own in this area.. I am far more interested in construction and metal smithing as far as doing whatever I am asked to do, heh. Because of that I just try to look at a lot of good art and study it. I try to watch my friends draw and follow livestreams of good artists. There really is no 'secret' to getting into the industry other than diving head forward. Figure out who owns what companies around you and start applying for jobs.. it's all I've done, and it's what others seem to do be doing, nothing special As frivi stated it isn't about money that makes someone professional or just a resume, it is how you conduct yourself. When looking for jobs have a good portfolio that has a lot of examples of work and make it easy to access and understand. I'd say despite this all being very low budget and full of a bunch of people who just really care about what they do, people definitely conduct themselves professionally I think. |
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| Ekko | Jul 17 2011, 12:16 PM Post #10 |
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I have accounts on both of those sites, but I haven't really been active there. I'll have to go back through the forums. I really like the drawing exercises they have though, so fun & challenging. I was kinda struggling with that for a while too, I don't know if I really want to do illustration my whole life hah. It's really fun for me & I love it, but I don't know if I'm good enough to make a living off of it. I've considered different fields, but eh.. Haha you make it sound so easy! I'll just have to give it my all. Right, and I feel like the more creative fields of work rely more on a portfolio anyways. Half of the people who have interviewed me for the more creative jobs, barely even glanced at my resume which is probably a good thing. x) Thanks for all of the tips RD. |
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