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Mystical Equine
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Design for Owners: Red Dog; my presentation document and bibliography.
Topic Started: Jul 16 2011, 11:11 AM (638 Views)
Lint Jul 18 2011, 10:00 AM Post #11
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 Thank you, red. Your links were especially helpful. I've found myself at both CgSociety and ConceptArt in the past but had never thought of signing up. Wasn't aware of the wealth of information on both sites. I find the tutorials to be amazingly clear and helpful. I hope I can find some time to participate.

I have to admit I am one of the most horrendous goal setters.

Hehe I feel like Ekko and I are at much of the same cross-roads. I try to keep a realistic grasp of the change that happens when you take a hobby and make it a career. I think a good portion of people who do look into art, look around and wonder if they can possibly compete or are up to par. Regardless, I love learning and knowledge in any field, even if it doesn't take me into the art industry can be useful and fun. So I hardly consider pressing forward a waste.

Thanks again!
Edited by Lint, Jul 18 2011, 10:02 AM.
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reddogdied Jul 18 2011, 10:28 AM Post #12
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 I think this is akin to any other field you need to study for, there are a lot of people who are in it and to stand out you need to work hard for years and meet helpful souls along the way. I try not to think of the things I do as 'careers' and haven't really ever. I have no idea what I'll spend the vast majority of my time doing yet.. I don't have that solid full time job to know ;) But I have found a lot of great things in trying my best at a couple skills. You sort of won't know you care to do it full time until you actually try and live your life that way. I guess that is how I knew illustration won't be something I pursue as if my life depended on it, but, I need to be doing commissions throughout the year.

Glad I could be of some help!
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Frivi Jul 18 2011, 03:15 PM Post #13
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 Red, I don't think you're trying to rile me up at all, and I apologize if I sounded that way ^^ I enjoy a passionate debate xD

Quote:
 
I think both of you have very valid points. I just want to say that maybe to get a site on it's feet, you don't need the bare bones team Red is talking about, to start out with. Once it's up and running, to make it even more efficient & successful you could hire out a team to get on the job. I have no experience with running a business, by any means, but I feel like if you start small, there's only room for improvement and growth even if it is farther down the line. On the other hand, you could have greater success with hiring a team right off the bat, even if you have to wait for funds, making it professional & functional from the start. Still kind of on the line with this one, I really don't know where I fall haha.


Ekko basically summed up what I've been trying to say xD

I can definitely see where it may be frustrating for artists such as yourself who are trying to work for sim games. Not many sim games can pay you the way that a larger, more traditionally run game could.

I'm speaking only for myself here, as I've no idea what other owners think, but personally I would rather do it the hard way than go to investors. I got the money to start AL from alpha account sales -- over $800, if you want to know the hard numbers lol. Essentially, my potential players were my investors (and still are), and therefore I take very seriously my responsibility to work for THEM, to give them the game they were hoping for. To me (and again, this may just be me), the players being my only investors is far more desirable than going to investors whose only interest in my game is how financially successful it is. The only people who should have a say over how my game develops is myself and the people who play it, not another business or individual who likely doesn't even know what a sim game is, let alone plays one. The only other person who has ever "invested" in my game is my grandfather, who has no interest whatsoever in telling me how to run the site or the business, and doesn't care how long it takes for it to perhaps pay off for him in the end.

I'm aware this makes me incredibly un-business-savvy by most standards, and certainly amateur as well, and that's fine with me. I believe that games can be successful without using the standard business model. I'm not far along enough yet to know whether this is true, but I guess I'll find out lol.


I think there is a LOT of room for improvement in how sim games are set up initially. I've just now started having artists sign contracts, I've just begun looking into tax issues and the like a few months ago, I'm behind on very many things, and I think there has been generally agreement on these boards in the past that it would be benficial to get this information out there for potential game owners so that they can set themselves up to be far more organized/professional than games have started out as in the past.

Personally, your reccomendation feels a little extreme to me for a site that wouldn't even have players yet. I mean just the inclusion of someone to manage payroll xD That's insinuating a lot about how many employees there are lol. Your outline for staff looks beautiful....for the future. That's really what it comes down to for me. That's an outline for "when my game is larger and bringing in more money, this is what I will have", not an outline for a development staff.

So basically yes, I see where you are coming from and see how it could be beneficial (especially for those people looking for jobs in those areas XD), but personally I would rather struggle a bit in the beginning and end up with a site that belongs 100% to me and my players.


(Also wanted to note, by "backwards" I meant just that one step came before the other, not in a derrogatory sense, I certainly didn't think you were calling us that ^^)
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reddogdied Jul 18 2011, 04:34 PM Post #14
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 After hearing you talk a bit, I think we both better understand each other. My mindset coming into it really was from the point of view of seeing the games become a lot larger in revenue and from what I understand it isn't financially possible to make comparative payments to designers and other important employees (including yourself!) without outside investors.

I totally understand why that is a tricky position to be in because too often someone sells some right of their company to someone and they totally ruin either the initial energy the company had or somehow deviates from the owner's intentions. I certainly think it would be difficult to find smaller investors or other businesses to support yours, but, I still think it may be possible for some owners. I feel a bit more enlightened hearing your side of it and why you feel so strongly about only having your investors be your players. In this instance you and your players have the most control over how the game develops.

I do feel a bit discouraged that I may lose my chance to work for sim games, at least for a few more years. :/ Those numbers don't allow for someone like myself who definitely needs to work and be paid get into it. I don't mention this as to try to persuade or challenge that, however, but maybe make light of a reality that without more payment you guys may lose a lot of artists such as myself who have to move on. As Loumi pointed out this really isn't an industry to be paid in, maybe just one for some experience and fun. I certainly agree with that! I've had quite a lot of fun. :) And my fun isn't over, but, nonetheless I had to state my case and my observations.

I think at this point I am very interested to hear if anyone would report their experiences with finding investors at all, and any research done on the matter. I am truly just curious if there is any safe way to do this to preserve your interests. I'll open up a thread on the matter later.

Thank you for passionately debating with me, this has been the kind of response I was hoping for! And I hope it wasn't a waste of time for you either, heh.
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